Son-ship of Jesus Christ- some answers...

Hi Friends,

These are the answers I have given for the questions of my Friend about the trinity and the son-ship of Jesus Christ.

If I have made any mistakes on my answers, I request you to correct it.

I think these kind of discussions will help us to grow in Bible and study more about Bible.


Thanks.

(Mail 14) Sajan

Friend:

I also like to say the same thing to you: "don't tell or judge anything without understanding or reading the Bible fully by sticking on to one or two sentences in the Bible". And please don't judge or stick on to the single sentence, just for an argument.

But the real reason for not to consider words in Bible is because the existing bible has many conflicts and is not the words from God.

We believe that Our Book is the words of God. So there should not be any conflict even though we are analyzing a single word itself.

And Our Book is saying: "If it (Our Book) is not from God; you might have seen much conflict in it".

Sajan

Dear Friend.

You have two options.

Either you believe in Bible fully or don't believe in Bible at all.
Partial belief wont do any good for you.
Because, Jesus said, without attracted by Father, no one will come to me and believe me.
Hence, it is your destiny that you believe or not.

What is the use of teaching students in the language your book is written?

By that time please teach the youth of your religion about LOVE, the ultimate message from God.
Because Bible says GOD IS LOVE.

How much they can understand a foreign language and understand the concepts?

Hence it is better to translate it to a language, to which that people belongs by some persons, who is having good knowledge in both the Languages.

I don't think that God's language is Arabic or Aramaic or Greek or Hebrew.

God's language is Love.
Hence whatever be the Language, the message will be the same.

These translations are done  by the persons who dedicated their life for it and lead by the Holy Spirit.

So if you don't believe in Bible, please please stop quoting The Holy Bible for your False teachings.
Also, I will stop my discussions here.

Otherwise, you should believe in Bible fully and prove that Jesus is not the Son of God according to Bible.

I am challenging you, you can't !!!!!

Because the Bible is written to show that Jesus is the Son of God.

Friend:

Here many times I told that (even though not considering by words), it shows Jesus is someone else other than God; else what is the meaning of ‘Jesus was with Jesus’? How can you repeat the same wrong argument after understanding the things?

Also here, it is mentioned that ‘he was with God’; not ‘he was with father’. So if he was a God; then what is the meaning of above sentence? But Bible actually is telling the truth, ie, God is one beyond Jesus.

(If you again repeat the same argument, I will not respond to it; but if not clear my words, you can ask me).

Sajan

Thousand times I have told you that Jesus is the Son of God.

Obviously, Son of means he is the Son of GOD.

Again you are repeating some foolish arguments like Sajan is with Sajan, Friend is with Friend.

Someone has created such an argument in your mind. Please come out of that well and please understand the concept there.

If he is the Son of God, he should have the divine nature.

He was with the God, before the creation. He was acting as a word of God.

We can't tell anything about the Hierarchy in the Heaven and how it is arranged, because we didn't understand our three year old child, then trying to understand God's Hierarchy.

Or else, if you can show a worm, that can understand the Human Hierarchy, Human will, their relationships, their thoughts, then surely i will explain this concept very clearly.  

What you told is correct.

In Earth, Jesus' role was as a Son of God. But in Heaven, he is having the divine nature and the role is not known.

But he is divine, and not a normal Human being.

As a Son, he should show his father above him in earth.

However, that doesn't mean that Jesus is beyond God or God is beyond Jesus.

That is simply UNKNOWN.

Friend:

Whether Jesus ever told that he is the Son of God or He is the God?

Sajan:

John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad."

John 8: 58 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"

John 10: 30 "The Father and I are one."

Friend:

If considering Bible as a whole, this sentence means that if we are obeying Jesus, it is similar to obeying God. ie, God will never come to us directly; instead He sends prophets and through them God is giving the right path to Human kind. So as other prophets, Jesus also was a good prophet.

And if we are considering Jesus as God by such a few sentences, then we will fail to explain most of the sentences in Bible.

Sajan

1. First you read the above versus and understand it fully. Please answer me the meaning of the first two verses.

2. Who told you that God will never come us directly and he will send only prophets??

God ever told like that you?

Or you are taking God's decision in Heaven??

If you don't know something means you should have the politeness to tell I don't know.

Please don't try to make God according to your wishes and compel others to Believe like that.

Please don't try to make a God of "our convenience".

3. Prove me that Jesus was just a prophet and not the Son of God with Bible.

Sajan:

John 14: 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

John 14: 8-10

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?

Friend:

Please listen to above Jesus’ reply. Here Jesus is only telling ‘I am in the Father’, but not saying ‘I am the Father’. So it is clear that Father and Jesus are not the same.

Prophet also had told similar words to the world (explained below).

Sajan

Again that foolish argument.

From the beginning itself, my point is that Jesus is the Son of God.

How a Son can say I am the Father??

Jesus is the Son of God with divine nature.

According to Bible, He was in the God.

Sajan:

John 11: 25

Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?"

"Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God."

Mark 14: 61

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Friend:

Here it is clearly mentioned that Jesus is one who had came into the world from God. So it means that God is somewhere else and Jesus is one who only came from God; not the God.

If those coming from God are Gods, then ‘Adam’ also should be a God. 

Sajan

It's really amazing Friend!!!

From where you are getting these kind of conclusions??

Where it is mentioned that Jesus is a Human being came from God??

What is the meaning of the question, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

Please read the above versus word by word.

Friend:

I believe that God is almighty; but Jesus is telling that he can't do anything......(John 5:30) then how can he become a God?

John 8

¹² When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

 ¹³ The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”

 ¹⁴ Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. ¹⁵ You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. ¹⁶ But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. ¹⁷ In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. ¹⁸ I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”

 ¹⁹ Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”

   “You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”

Sajan:

Colossians 1:15:

"Christ is the visible image of the invisible God."1

Here Paul is telling Jesus is a visible image of the Invisible God.

You know that Carbon, one element is there. But can you show Carbon to me?? You cannot.

But You can show the visible forms of Carbon like Charcoal and Diamond. Please apply the same analogy here.

Friend:

Prophet  also told that ‘obeying me is similar to obeying God’. But it never means he is a God. It simply means that He is a prophet, and through his tongue, God speaks to humankind.

What you had told above is also having the same meaning; nothing more. 

Sajan

I was trying to convey a concept to you!!

unfortunately u didn't understand the meaning of the same.

⁵³ Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

 ⁵⁴ Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. ⁵⁵ Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. ⁵⁶ Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

 ⁵⁷ “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

   ⁵⁸ “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Please tell me what you understand from the above Brown statements.
Also please tell me what you have understand from the below passages.

John 5

The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, ²⁶ but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. ²⁷ My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. ²⁸ I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ²⁹ My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all^[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. ³⁰ I and the Father are one.”

John 10
³⁴ Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’^[d]? ³⁵ If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— ³⁶ what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? ³⁷ Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. ³⁸ But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

^{John 14
6} Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ⁷ If you really know me, you will know^[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

 ⁹ Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? ¹⁰ Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? 

Sajan:

Friend, we must need in depth thinking to understand this concept.

Friend:

But Our Book always says that the things are very clear for those who are thinking. (as you told, Christians are believing that most of the things are secret in Bible; then think how can the people believe?, But I believe that Bible is very clear)

Sajan

Friend, I was mentioning about God. Even though we have in depth thinking we can't understand many of the concepts about GOD. Because he is almighty and we don't know what is happening in Heaven.

My vision is a partial vision. I have the politeness to say like that.

The only thing I am trying to say is, you please please stop saying Jesus is not the Son of God, he is just a prophet or a human being, by quoting Bible, to your Christian friends.

Because, it is a FALSE TEACHING.

Now, I am quoting only the Book of JOHN.

I can provide you this much evidence from the Book of John itself.

If we take the whole Bible, I can give you thousands of proofs.

Sajan:

Jesus is God and he was the Son of God and He was there in the universe from the creation itself.

When the God took the visible image of him, as a Human being, He must show the characters of a Human Being.

So God took the form of a Son from the Father.

As a human being, we should be polite our self.

As a human being, Jesus is showing his politeness through this verse, that He is doing the will of his father, which shows his obedience and Love towards his father, as he is a Good son, so that the people in the world also imitate him and will do the will of God.

Friend:

You please tell me what other prophets had done. I believe they all have done the same thing as Jesus had done; means they all were obedient to the God.

That was the reason that Bible had told that Adam, Solomon, Ephraim, Jesus, etc. were sons of God.

You are believing that ‘son of God’ may also mean ‘prophet’; then why can’t you believe that Jesus was a good prophet?.

Also as you told, when Jesus took form of Human, he should say ‘I am a human being’ always; But you are telling that he told as he is a God; (which is actually cheating. But I believe that he never cheated anybody by saying lies; those lies were added to Bible by some people after Jesus’ death).

Sajan

Again, you are creating a God of your convenience.

Again and again I tell you that you please believe Bible fully or don't Believe it at all.

Please read the below passage:

Mathew 11

As John’s disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? ⁸ If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings’ palaces. ⁹ Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. ¹⁰ This is the one about whom it is written:

   “‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,
   who will prepare your way before you.’^[c]

   ¹¹ Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

John was a prophet at the time of Jesus.

Jesus is telling John the baptist is the greatest person ever born of women.

So, If Jesus is also a prophet, born from a women,  then Jesus should be below John, which is not possible, because John itself telling that I am lesser than Jesus.

That clearly indicates that Jesus is just not a prophet.

Don't try to put a square of 1000m perimeter into a triangle of 2m. Okay.

Please don't try to create your own picture about Bible and Jesue.

One Humble request is you please read Bible or read the passages I am giving.

Sajan:

We can see a Good Son in Jesus Christ, so that we can imitate that in our daily life.

Even though he is equally powerful and he is the God, he is showing his politeness as a good Son by saying like this.

Friend:

Some of things are true here, and our religion also believes in those.

You told that Jesus was obedient to his father, which shows he was under control. But think, God is Almighty; he controls everything; and he should not be controlled by anyone else. This shows that Jesus is not a God.

I believe that God never loses his power…

But the wrong sentence above is ‘Even though he is equally powerful and he is the God’.

If equally powerful, if he obeys his father, his father also should obey him some times.

Tell me if anywhere he commanded to father.

Also if they are equal, then

Jesus is son of God =>God is son of Jesus.

If you are not obeying this relation then….. Believe that Jesus is not the God.

Also, you please tell me the meaning of ‘son of God’. (Normally a birth of son will occur a period of time after birth of Father. It implies there were some times or years before Jesus’ birth). So tell me how can he become a God?

Sajan

Sometimes you will ask Genuine questions also. Good.

I told you that Jesus' role in this earth was as a Son of God.

It is his duty to be the Son of God.

And Bible clearly says that He is not just a human being and he has the divinity and he has came from the God.

As a good Son, it is his duty to be submissive to the Father.

We can see God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in Earth, according to Bible.

We have this idea related to this earth.

But the Hierarchy, authority, Power, Nature, Date of Birth of Father, Son etc are unknown to the human beings according to the Bible.

The Known thing is God the Father created the world with Jesus and Holy Spirit (Consider they as the two hands of God just to understand), Human beings committed sin, Son of God, Jesus Christ saved them and the Holy Spirit is giving us the correct way and path of the life.

This three appearance of God to the Earth is available from the Bible.

Also, Jesus told, believe in me, those who believe in me will have eternal life, I will forgive your sins (only God can forgive sins) and I will send you the messenger, the Holy spirit to you.

Truly truly I am telling to the organization of Heaven is unknown to me and this world.

Please read this passage

Mathew 3

¹³ Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. ¹⁴ But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

 ¹⁵ Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

 ¹⁶ As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. ¹⁷ And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Here we can see, that the Son of Man is baptized, the spirit came as a Dove and the Sound from Heaven is heard.

That means, there is Son, There is Father, There is Holy Spirit.

At the same time, I am Sajan, the body, the soul, and self.

If you are telling that God can't exist as the three at the same time, then you should explain, How God can be present everywhere in the world and Where is Heaven located.

Sajan:

37-And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

38-Nor does his word dwells in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.

"Here Jesus is telling that you have never heard his voice nor seen his form."

What does that mean??

............ Jesus already saw the almighty God.

That's why he is telling you have never heard his voice nor seen his form.

Friend:

Sajan, please think yourself and about your words. You are telling that Jesus and God are same; then how the above sentence becomes correct?

But what Jesus had told was the correct; means he had seen real God (and people in front of Jesus were not seeing God; instead they were seeing only the Prophet).

If you have the power to think, then you please think (not for me; but for yourself):

If Jesus was God, then ‘you have never heard his voice nor seen his form’ is meaning ‘you have never heard my voice nor seen my form’.

This is the reason that Christians are saying: ‘bible is full of secrets’.

But actually bible clearly saying that God is almighty and He is One, and Jesus is only His son (ie, prophet) like Adam, Solomon, Ephraim, etc.

You told that Jesus only had seen the Father.

So it is clear that Jesus is not the Father. (Else we can say, Israeel people also had seen the Father).

So it shows they (Jesus and God) are different.

Please tell me answer for below question.

Can I tell "Jesus is the Father of God"?

If answer is 'no', then remember

A=B => B=A is now also a valid formula.

I told you "n" times that Jesus is the Son of God.

If Son is there means there should be the Father.

That doesn't mean that Jesus is the Father of God if God is the Father of Jesus.

Please come out of these literal meaning and think what is the meaning of the sentence.

If Sajan is the Son of Philip, means that Sajan and Philip are different.

It is human body.

God is spirit. Why can't God take three appearance??

You misunderstood the sentence. What I am telling is, Jesus is the Son of God, at the same time he is God, as he has divine nature, and he is not just a human being or prophet.

Sajan:

That means Jesus has some specialty than the human being and Angels.

So Jesus is the Son of God, he himself is God, and the visible image of the God.

Friend:

This doesn't mean he is a God, since Moses and other prophets also heard God's sound.

And all the prophets had done some miracles which a normal human being couldn't do.

Sajan

Why I am telling that Jesus is the Son of God is, In Bible lots of evidences are available for the same. These are not my assumptions or findings.

Since you didn't read Bible fully, you don't know that.

Please don't tell whatever things you don't know are incorrect.

Just tell, I don't know.

Sajan:

More explanations to Chapter 1 of John.

John begins by identifying his claims regarding who Jesus is.

The introduction of John’s gospel immediately introduces the major themes that John intends to discuss.

Then he spends the rest of the book proving and demonstrating these themes from the life and teaching of Jesus.

The “Word” refers to Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, as shown by verse 14,17.

“In the beginning” must refer to the beginning of creation, as in Genesis 1:1.

That this is the meaning is confirmed in verse 3 showing that Jesus is the Creator.

So Jesus existed from eternity with the Father.

Note that the use of “was” shows that Jesus already was in existence when the Creation occurred.

Major truths regarding Jesus stated in John 1:1-18:

1. Jesus is eternal and uncreated, existing before the world began (1:1-3).

Friend:

If uncreated, then how can he become a son?

Sajan

That's God's decision.

God can create Human beings from Stones. God created Adam from mud. Then why cant God send his power as his Son to this earth??

Sajan:

2. Jesus possesses Deity (absolute authority and rulership over created things — 1:1).

3. Jesus is a separate Being from the Father (1:1,2,18).

Friend:

It clearly means they (God and Jesus) are different; not the same.

Sajan

Yes you are correct.

From the beginning itself I am also telling the same. Jesus is the Son of God, at the same time he has divine nature (Since you are confused about the word God, I am using Divine nature, that means Godly nature).

Sajan:

4. Jesus is the Creator – the active force through Whom all things were made (1:3,10).

Friend:

Earlier you told that, Jesus was there when God (Father) had created everything & I also believe that God had created everything. But now you are telling that Jesus (God’s son) had created everything. I am not saying much; but think yourself.

Sajan

You have this confusion, since you can accept the Divine nature of Jesus Christ. I don't have the doubt since, I believe that Jesus is having Divine nature, so Jesus, Father, and the Holy Spirit are the same. So there is nothing wrong with that.

Sajan:

5. Jesus is the source of truth and understanding of God’s will (1:4,5,14,17,18).

Friend:

Here John 1:18(see bible) only says: “He is very near to Father”. So it is clear that he is not the Father/God.

Sajan

What you are telling is about the role of Jesus in earth, then it is correct. As a good son (not like me) he was submissive. Those who are polite is glorifying the Father. Because, politeness is a divine nature.

6. Jesus is the source of life by which men have a relationship with God and hope of eternal life (1:4).

Friend:

Here it is very clear that Jesus connecting men to God; means he is a prophet because this was the duty of every prophets. If Jesus is a God, then you will fail to explain the above sentence.

Sajan

You are failing to understand this is because you didn't understand who is Jesus Christ, why he came to earth, from where he came, and what was his role in this earth.

If he came as the Son of God, he should show the Father to others. That doesn't mean that Jesus is just a prophet.

Consider, Friend's Father is a Big entrepreneur with 5-6 workers in that firm.

Some times he will send any of the workers to his customers. They are not ready to purchase that particular product.

So one day your father send you to sell that product to the Customers, since, you have more awareness about your fathers business, (if you are a good son) and can effectively talk to them about your products.

That doesn't mean that you are also an employee of your Fathers Firm.

7. Jesus became incarnate in the flesh as a man (1:14,9,10)

Friend:

You mean God had lost all his power by becoming as a man. But I (and all true believers since starting of world) believe that God is one, who will never lose his Power.

Sajan

Who told that If God become man, then he will lose his power?

Have you programmed or Hardwired God like that??

Is God a PIC or S12X or 8051 Micro controller to judge the operation??

God is almighty, he can do anything. We can't ask why he did like that.

God don't want your permission to be a human being and be God at the same time.

This is your false belief that God will lose his Power if he is taking the human nature.

Since God is the creater of Man, He can do whatever he like.

That is upto God.

8. Jesus was rejected by men (1:10,11).

9. Jesus is the One who can give people power to become children of God (1:12).

Friend:

What does it mean.... thinking deeply, you can see that Jesus is not the God. Else the sentence, 'God is the One who can give people power to become children of God' becomes meaningless.

Sajan

You are again in that foolish argument.

Friend is with Friend, A.K Antony is with A. K Antony.
That sentence, means Jesus has the authority that's all.

Sajan:

The Word was “with God” in that Jesus was present in the beginning with the Father (see v3; Cf. 1 John 1:2) – hence, He is a separate individual living Being from the Father.

Friend:

This means that Jesus is not God; he came from God; ie, he was created; but God is one, who has no starting or ending.

Sajan

Have you there in the earth when Jesus was created??

Dear Friend, that is unknown. The Bible says Jesus was with God before the creation. And also telling that He was God. That means, Jesus is not just a Prophet or Human Being. Again I am telling you , the Heavens hierarchy is UNKNOWN.

Why can't the Only one God exist as three at the same time??

Why can't the Only one God can't exist as his own wishes??

Does he need our permission for that??

I will send the answers for the other arguments within 2-3 days.

Till that time you please pray to the God to open your eyes to see the truth.

You will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

Jesus Told: No one will come to me without attracted by my Father.

I am sure, one day you will be.....

May God Bless us!!!