This is another discussion with my friend based on John Chapter 3,4 and 5.
I have given the discussion as such from my mail, with little changes in the name of the person, name of the religion etc. I am really sorry for the repetitions of the sentences. I believe it will be useful for the continuity in reading.
The answers for the questions my friend raised in his mail in the second half of this post will be published in the next posts.
I Welcome your comments and corrections.
Thank you.
Mail 12(Sajan)
John Chapter 3.
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven.
This indicates that Jesus was there in heaven and except Jesus, no one went to the Heaven, so that means Jesus is not just a normal being or prophet.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Here it is clearly mentioned that the one and only son of God is Jesus Christ.
Jesus is saying that you believe in me, so that you can get the eternal life and you will be called as the Son of God.
No other prophets never told like that.
So Jesus must be the God, the one and only son of God.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
So it is our duty to believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
28 You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him.’ 29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30 He must become greater; I must become less.”
Here John, the prophet is telling that Jesus is the Messiah.
35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven.
This indicates that Jesus was there in heaven and except Jesus, no one went to the Heaven, so that means Jesus is not just a normal being or prophet.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Here it is clearly mentioned that the one and only son of God is Jesus Christ.
Jesus is saying that you believe in me, so that you can get the eternal life and you will be called as the Son of God.
No other prophets never told like that.
So Jesus must be the God, the one and only son of God.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
So it is our duty to believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
28 You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him.’ 29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30 He must become greater; I must become less.”
Here John, the prophet is telling that Jesus is the Messiah.
35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
Chapter 4
25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”
Here Jesus is explaining that I am the Messiah.
According to the old testment, Messiah will come from the God to save the earth from Sin and he is the one and only Son of the almighty God.
If Jesus = Messiah,
and Messiah = God,
then Jesus = God.
Chapter 5
25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”
Here Jesus is explaining that I am the Messiah.
According to the old testment, Messiah will come from the God to save the earth from Sin and he is the one and only Son of the almighty God.
If Jesus = Messiah,
and Messiah = God,
then Jesus = God.
Chapter 5
17 In his
defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at
his work to this very day, and I too am working.”
18 For this
reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the
Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father,
making himself equal with God.
The
Jewish leaders understood that Jesus is telling that he is the Son of God and
he is making himself equal to God as he is the Son of God.
Then
why you did not understand that Jesus is telling that he is the Son of God???
24 “Very truly
I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him
who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from
death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming
and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those
who hear will live. 26 For as the Father
has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Here
Jesus is explaining his relationship with his father. See how casually he is
telling about the almighty God. We can see in Bible that no other prophets ever
used such kind of words and never tell that I am the Son of God and he is my
father. Jesus is telling because he has the authority since he is the God, the
Son of the God, the Word.
19 “Very
truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he
sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves
the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even
greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as
the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all
judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they
honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the
Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
Please
read the verse in blue colour carefully.
Here
Jesus is telling that the people should honor him as we are honoring the
Father( God).
That
is not Jesus's wish but God's (Father's) Wish. So that God gave all the
judgement to the Son, Jesus Christ.
God
has never given any power and authority to the Human beings, so that they will
get equal honor as God.
Actually
God created Human beings just below the Angels.
So
the order of honor is like this.
God>Angels>Human
Beings.
So if God is
giving equal honor to Jesus Christ with God, then where is Jesus's position???
That means,
Jesus is the Son of God, in fact the almighty God, the eternal Son of God.
36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For
the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am
doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning
me. You
have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word
dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.
43 I
have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else
comes in his own name, you will accept him.
Your argument is that Jesus is a prophet. You know
that John, the baptist is a prophet. If Jesus was also a prophet, he will not
tell like that I have testimony weightier
than that of John.
Jesus is telling that you people are testifying John the baptist, as you have seen him but my Father God himself is testifying me.
That means. me and John the baptist are different.
John the baptist is just a Prophet and I am the Son of the Almighty God.
Jesus is telling that you people are testifying John the baptist, as you have seen him but my Father God himself is testifying me.
That means. me and John the baptist are different.
John the baptist is just a Prophet and I am the Son of the Almighty God.
Mail 13(Friend)
Sajan:
As per my knowledge Christianity is the best and God shown him fully in
Jesus Christ.
I have accepted the truth that Jesus is the Son of God and hence it is
my duty to share that knowledge with you since you are saying that Jesus is not
the Son of God without understanding or reading the Bible fully by sticking
on to one or two sentences in the Bible.
Like Your Relegions, Christians do not have the teaching that we should
try to understand the bible word by word. Our teaching is that please try to
understand the Bible as a whole.
If you want to understand a person, please try to understand him as a
whole.
By two or three characters we cannot judge a person.
So please read the bible and try to understand it as a whole.
Friend:
I also like to say the same thing to you: "don't
tell or judge anything without understanding or reading the Bible fully by
sticking on to one or two sentences in the Bible". And please don't judge
or stick on to the single sentence, just for an argument.
But the real reason for not to consider words in Bible
is because the existing bible has many conflicts and is not the words from God.
We believe that Our Book is the words of God. So there
should not be any conflict even though we are analyzing a single word itself.
And Our Book is saying: "If it (Our Book) is not
from God; you might have seen much conflict in it".
Sajan:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were
made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and
that life was the light of all mankind.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
Here, It is clearly mentioned that
1. Word Was God.
2. Word Was with God.
3. He Was with God.
4. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
ie, Word became Jesus or Word = Jesus.
So (1) Become Jesus Was God.
From (2) and (3) it Become Jesus Was With
God.
5. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that
has been made.
Hence, Word = Jesus =God.
Friend. it is simple mathematics.
I dont know what is the confusion in that.
If Word is God and Word is Jesus, then Jesus = What??
or if A = B and A = C,
then please tell me the relation between B and C.
You are telling that the basic mathematical formula is wrong.
Friend:
Here many times I told that (even though not
considering by words), it shows Jesus is someone else other than God; else what
is the meaning of 'Jesus was with Jesus'? How can you repeat the same
wrong argument after understanding the things?
Also here, it is mentioned that 'he was with God';
not 'he was with father'. So if he was a God; then what is the meaning
of above sentence? But Bible actually is telling the truth, ie, God is one
beyond Jesus.
(If you again repeat the same argument, I will not
respond to it; but if not clear my words, you can ask me).
Friend:
Whether Jesus ever told that he is the Son of God or
He is the God?
Sajan:
John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my
coming. He saw it and was glad."
John 8: 58 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham
was even born, I Am!"
John 10: 30 "The Father and I are one."
Friend:
If considering Bible as a whole, this sentence means
that if we are obeying Jesus, it is similar to obeying God. ie, God will never
come to us directly; instead He sends prophets and through them God is giving
the right path to Human kind. So as other prophets, Jesus also was a good
prophet.
And if we are considering Jesus as God by such a few
sentences, then we will fail to explain most of the sentences in Bible.
Sajan:
John 14: 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No
one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will
know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen
him.”
John 14: 8-10
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for
us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been
among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can
you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father,
and that the Father is in me?
Friend:
Please listen to above Jesus' reply. Here Jesus is
only telling 'I am in the Father', but not saying 'I am the Father'. So it is
clear that Father and Jesus are not the same.
Prophet Muhammad also had told similar words to the
world (explained below).
Sajan:
John 11: 25
Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who
believes in me will live, even after dying. Everyone who lives in me and
believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?"
"Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have
always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into
the world from God."
Mark 14: 61
Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the
Blessed One?”
62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man
sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of
heaven.”
Friend:
Here it is clearly mentioned that Jesus is one who had
came into the world from God. So it means that God is somewhere else and
Jesus is one who only came from God; not the God.
If those coming from God are Gods, then 'Adam' also
should be a God.
Friend:
I believe that God is almighty; but Jesus is telling
that he can't do anything......(John 5:30) then how can he become a God?
Sajan:
Colossians 1:15:
"Christ is the visible image of the invisible God."1
Here Paul is telling Jesus is a visible image of the Invisible
God.
You know that Carbon, one element is there. But can you show Carbon to
me?? You cannot.
But You can show the visible forms of Carbon like Charcoal and Diamond.
Please apply the same analogy here.
Friend:
Prophet also told that 'obeying me is similar to obeying
God'. But it never means he is a God. It simply means that He is a prophet, and
through his tongue, God speaks to humankind.
What you had told above is also having the same
meaning; nothing more.
Sajan:
Friend, we must need in death thinking to understand this concept.
Friend:
But Our Book always says that the things are very
clear for those who are thinking. (as you told, Christians are believing that
most of the things are secret in Bible; then think how can the people believe?,
But I believe that Bible is very clear)
Sajan:
Jesus is God and he was the Son of God and He was there in the universe
from the creation itself.
When the God took the visible image of him, as a Human being, He must
show the characters of a Human Being.
So God took the form of a Son from the Father.
As a human being, we should be polite our self.
As a human being, Jesus is showing his politeness through this verse,
that He is doing the will of his father, which shows his obedience and Love
towards his father, as he is a Good son, so that the people in the world also
imitate him and will do the will of God.
Friend:
You please tell me what other prophets had done. I
believe they all have done the same thing as Jesus had done; means they all
were obedient to the God.
That was the reason that Bible had told that Adam,
Solomon, Ephraim, Jesus, etc. were sons of God.
You are believing that 'son of God' may also mean
'prophet'; then why can't you believe that Jesus was a good
prophet?.
Also as you told, when Jesus took form of Human, he
should say 'I am a human being' always; But you are telling that he told as he
is a God; (which is actually cheating. But I believe that he never cheated
anybody by saying lies; those lies were added to Bible by some people after
Jesus' death).
Sajan:
We can see a Good Son in Jesus Christ, so that we can imitate that in
our daily life.
Even though he is equally powerful and he is the God, he is showing his
politeness as a good Son by saying like this.
Friend:
Some of things are true here, and Your Relegions also
believe in those.
You told that Jesus was obedient to his father, which
shows he was under control. But think, God is Almighty; he controls everything;
and he should not be controlled by anyone else. This shows that Jesus is not a God.
I believe that God never loses his power…
But the wrong sentence above is 'Even though he is
equally powerful and he is the God'.
If equally powerful, if he obeys his father, his
father also should obey him some times.
Tell me if anywhere he commanded to father.
Also if they are equal, then
Jesus is son of God =>God is son of
Jesus.
If you are not obeying this relation then….. Believe
that Jesus is not the God.
Also, you please tell me the meaning of 'son of God'.
(Normally a birth of son will occur a period of time after birth of Father. It
implies there were some times or years before Jesus' birth). So tell me how can
he become a God?
Sajan:
37-And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You
have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
38-Nor does his word dwells in you, for you do not believe the one he
sent.
"Here Jesus is telling that you have never heard his voice nor seen
his form."
What does that mean??
............ Jesus already saw the almighty God.
That's why he is telling you have never heard his voice nor seen his
form.
Friend:
Sajan, please think yourself and about your words. You
are telling that Jesus and God are same; then how the above sentence becomes
correct?
But what Jesus had told was the correct; means he had
seen real God (and people in front of Jesus were not seeing God; instead they
were seeing only the Prophet).
If you have the power to think, then you please think
(not for me; but for yourself):
If Jesus was God, then 'you have never heard his voice
nor seen his form' is meaning 'you have never heard my voice nor seen my form'.
This is the reason that Christians are saying: 'bible
is full of secrets'.
But actually bible clearly saying that God is almighty
and He is One, and Jesus is only His son (ie, prophet) like Adam, Solomon,
Ephraim, etc.
You told that Jesus only had seen the Father.
So it is clear that Jesus is not the Father. (Else we
can say, Israeel people also had seen the Father).
So it shows they (Jesus and God) are different.
Please tell me answer for below question.
Can I tell "Jesus
is the Father of God"?
If answer is 'no', then remember
A=B => B=A
is now also a valid formula.
Sajan:
That means Jesus has some specialty than the human being and Angels.
So Jesus is the Son of God, he himself is God, and the visible image of
the God.
Friend:
This doesn't mean he is a God, since Moses and other
prophets also heard God's sound.
And all the prophets had done some miracles which a
normal human being couldn't do.
Sajan:
More explanations to Chapter 1 of John.
John begins by identifying his claims regarding who Jesus is.
The introduction of John's gospel immediately introduces the major
themes that John intends to discuss.
Then he spends the rest of the book proving and demonstrating these
themes from the life and teaching of Jesus.
The “Word” refers to Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, as shown by
verse 14,17.
“In the beginning” must refer to the beginning of creation, as in
Genesis 1:1.
That this is the meaning is confirmed in verse 3 showing that Jesus is
the Creator.
So Jesus existed from eternity with the Father.
Note that the use of “was” shows that Jesus already was in existence
when the Creation occurred.
Major truths regarding Jesus stated in John 1:1-18:
1. Jesus is eternal and uncreated, existing before the world began
(1:1-3).
Friend:
If uncreated, then how can he become a son?
Sajan:
2. Jesus possesses Deity (absolute authority and rulership over created
things -- 1:1).
3. Jesus is a separate Being from the Father (1:1,2,18).
Friend:
It clearly means they (God and Jesus) are different;
not the same.
Sajan:
4. Jesus is the Creator - the active force through Whom all things were
made (1:3,10).
Friend:
Earlier you told that, Jesus was there when God
(Father) had created everything & I also believe that God had created
everything. But now you are telling that Jesus (God's son) had created
everything. I am not saying much; but think yourself.
Sajan:
5. Jesus is the source of truth and understanding of God's will
(1:4,5,14,17,18).
Friend:
Here John 1:18(see bible) only says: “He is very near
to Father”. So it is clear that he is not the Father/God.
Sajan:
6. Jesus is the source of life by which men have a relationship with God
and hope of eternal life (1:4).
Friend:
Here it is very clear that Jesus connecting men to
God; means he is a prophet because this was the duty of every prophets.
If Jesus is a God, then you will fail to explain the above sentence.
Sajan:
7. Jesus became incarnate in the flesh as a man (1:14,9,10)
Friend:
You mean God had lost all his power by becoming as a
man. But I (and all true believers since starting of world) believe that God is
one, who will never lose his Power.
Sajan:
8. Jesus was rejected by men (1:10,11).
9. Jesus is the One who can give people power to become children of God
(1:12).
Friend:
What does it mean.... thinking deeply, you can see
that Jesus is not the God. Else the sentence, 'God is the One who
can give people power to become children of God' becomes meaningless.
Sajan:
The Word was “with God” in that Jesus was present in the beginning with
the Father (see v3; Cf. 1 John 1:2) - hence, He is a separate individual living
Being from the Father.
Friend:
This means that Jesus is not God; he came from God;
ie, he was created; but God is one, who has no starting or ending.
Sajan:
But also He “was God” in that He Himself possessed Deity.
To say there is one God is not necessarily to say there is only one
individual being that possesses Deity.
Jesus affirmed that He and His Father are “one” as all believers are to
be one (John 17:20,21) -- not one individual, but one in purpose, goal,
doctrine, etc.
The term “God” refers to that which possesses all the characteristics of
Deity and therefore deserves to be worshiped and honored as God.
Friend:
What is mean by God?
I believe 'the creature of all things; or the
almighty; or who has full power'.
Then the question is why 2nd god as Jesus... It shows
the God has some limitations and is taking help from a partner.....
And if they both have same power; then why it is
required? ....... Is it simply a waste?. (It is not like keeping a battery
extra; since God never fails)..
Sajan:
Another Example:
John 28-29:
After he saw proof of Jesus' resurrection, Thomas addressed Jesus as “my
Lord and my God” Clearly Thomas is here calling Jesus “God.”
If Jesus did not possess Deity, Thomas' statement would have been
blasphemy, and Jesus should have rebuked Him. Instead, Jesus praised Thomas and
pronounced a blessing on everyone who believes the same (verse29)!
Friend:
I searched in my Bible about this. But I found only
the following sentences:
John 1:28-
These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
John 1:29-
The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God,
who takes away the sin of the world!
So don't say anything before reading Bible at least
once.
Also I believe that God will not take the sin of
anybody; instead He will give correct reward to everybody…..
Means, if you do good things, you will get heaven; and
if you do bad things, you will get hell. That's all. (May God bless us and may
give Heaven).
Part 2
Sajan:
Here is the Gospel according to John, Chapter 3.
Please go through it and read it carefully.
I personally wish that you should read the bible chapters with me,
instead of searching some verses just for an argument.
In John, Chapter 2, two main things are their one is Jesus changes water
into wine and another is Jesus clearing the Temple courts.
Our discussion here is based on John, Chapter 3.
John Chapter 3.
13. No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from
heaven.
This indicates that Jesus was there in heaven and except Jesus, no one
went to the Heaven, so that means Jesus is not just a normal being or
prophet.
Friend:
Never; it means that Adam also is a God if Jesus is a
God (If explanation required, you may ask me).
And how it means Jesus is God?. Are you believing that
except normal person and prophets everybody is God?.
Sajan:
16. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever
believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Here it is clearly mentioned that the one and only son of God is Jesus
Christ.
Jesus is saying that you believe in me, so that you can get the eternal
life and you will be called as the Son of God.
No other prophets never told like that.
So Jesus must be the God, the one and only son of God.
Friend:
It clearly means that God is very bad; else how
he could give his son for the cruel and sinned people? A good father should
always love his son more than all other people. But, you believe that even
though Jesus was very obedient, his father punished him. Then tell me how his
father can become a good father. Without keeping justice, how his father can
become a good God?
So the clean and clear way is here:- actually, God had
sent Jesus not to take the sin of people; but to show them right path…. Jesus
had done what God had told him to do….. But, unfortunately some of people in
his place (israeel) tried to crucify him. This was not planned by his God; but
planned by some cruel people in his place.
By believing so, you can also believe that God loves
all mankind including Jesus (even though he and we are suffering in this life,
God will give us better life hereafter) and so God is a good Justice.
Every prophet had told the same to their people that
if you believe in me and God, you can escape from the Hell. (What Jesus had
told is also the same since you yourself told me that we can't become the real
sons of God).
All things simply mean that “son of God” is only a
technical term.
Sajan:
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but
to save the world through him.
Friend:
It means he was a prophet; all the prophets were sent
to save the world by showing them right path.
Sajan:
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not
believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of
God's one and only Son.
So it is our duty to believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
Friend:
Yes correct, we should believe that Jesus was a son of
God like Adam, Solomon, etc.
And we should believe that He who had sent Jesus to us
is the real God.
Sajan:
28 You yourselves can testify that I said, 'I am not the Messiah but am
sent ahead of him'. 29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who
attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he
hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30 He
must become greater; I must become less.”
Here John, the prophet is telling that Jesus is the Messiah.
Friend:
No; John is not telling that Jesus is a God. He only
says that Jesus is greater than him. Do you believe everybody above John is
God?
Sajan:
35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will
not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.
Friend:
Above I explained about the real love.
And this sentence doesn't mean that Jesus is a God.
Part 3
Sajan:
Dear Friend,
Here is Chapter 4 and 5.
Please go through the chapters.
Chapter 4
25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming.
When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you--I am he.”
Here Jesus is explaining that I am the Messiah.
According to the old testament, Messiah will come from the God to save
the earth from Sin and he is the one and only Son of the almighty God.
If Jesus = Messiah,
and Messiah = God,
then Jesus = God.
Friend:
Here some mistakes are there in your equations.
Corrected is given below.
If Jesus = Messiah,
And Messiah = God's son,
Then Jesus = God's son; (not God).
It implies that Jesus is a prophet like Adam, Ephraim,
Solomon, etc.
(Since Old Testament says all of them are sons of God)
Earlier you told me that 'son of God' in
Old Testament means 'Prophet'.
Then what is the meaning of below sentence?
“the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the
son of Adam, the son of God.” -(Luke-3:38)
As per your belief, it means Adam is prophet of God,
Seth is prophet of Adam, Enos is prophet of Seth,…..
Simultaneously consider the following
Also:
“They shall come with weeping; and with
petitions will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by rivers of waters, in a
straight way in which they shall not stumble; for I am a father to Israel, and
Ephraim is my firstborn.” -(Jeremiah:31:9)
As per your belief, it means Ephraim is the first
prophet. Then please tell me who was the first human; Adam or Ephraim (You and
me know that they both were prophets)
Chapter 5
Sajan:
17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work
to this very day, and I too am working.”
18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he
breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making
himself equal with God.
The Jewish leaders understood that Jesus is telling that he is the Son
of God and he is making himself equal to God as he is the Son of God.
Then why you did not understand that Jesus is telling that he is the Son
of God???
Friend:
Here is the reason. When Jesus was taken for
crucifying…he cried:
About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice,
saying, “Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani?” That is, “My God, my
God, why have you forsaken me?” Some of them who stood there, when they
heard it, said, “This man is calling Elijah.”- Matha-27:46-47
What does this mean Sajan? Here Jesus was calling “my
God, my God..” not even “my father..”.
It clearly means that somebody was there above Jesus.
If they both are having same power and position, then how One can become
Other's God?
Sajan, you may think… if you want to escape from
'False' and 'Falling Hell'.
Sajan:
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who
sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death
to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the
dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For
as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life
in himself.
Here Jesus is explaining his relationship with his father. See how
casually he is telling about the almighty God. We can see in Bible that no
other prophets ever used such kind of words and never tell that I am the Son of
God and he is my father. Jesus is telling because he has the authority since he
is the God, the Son of the God, the Word.
Friend:
Every prophet had told the same to believe not only in
God (Father) but also in them (prophets).
I believe that similar to Bible with Jesus, some
testaments were there with earlier prophets and these things might be there.
Sajan:
19 “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do
only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son
also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and
he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son
gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no
one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son
just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor
the Father, who sent him.
Here Jesus is telling that the people should honor him as we are
honoring the Father( God).
That is not Jesus' wish but God's (Father's) Wish. So that God gave all
the judgment to the Son, Jesus Christ.
God has never given any power and authority to the Human beings, so that
they will get equal honor as God.
Actually God created Human beings just below the Angels.
So the order of honor is like this.
God>Angels>Human Beings.
So if God is giving equal honor to Jesus Christ with God, then where is
Jesus' position???
That means, Jesus is the Son of God, in fact the almighty God, the
eternal Son of God.
Friend:
Here some of things are already replied that Jesus is
not the God since he had no power himself. Always he wants help from God
(father) for doing anything. Then how can he become a God?
The sentence, 'Moreover, the Father judges no one,
but has entrusted all judgment to the Son' is against your earlier argument
and against Bible because of following sentence:
'For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge
the world, but that the world should be saved through him'.- John 3:17
As per your above quote, Jesus could not do anything
except what Father had done. But if you strongly believe in Bible, you should
believe that above Father and Son, the believers can do!. See below:
Most certainly I tell you, he who believes in me, the
works that I do, he will do also; and he will do greater works than these,
because I am going to my Father.- John 14: 12
Now tell me who is/are the God/Gods? Whether Father,
Son or the normal believers?
That's why I am telling Bible has much conflicts and
had been changed many times!.
Sajan:
36. “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that
the Father has given me to finish--the very works that I am doing--testify that
the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified
concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does
his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.
43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if
someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.
Friend:
Here some of things are already replied.
Who told that John was a prophet?
I don't believe that all prophets are having the same
position or level. Also I don't believe that John was a prophet. So Jesus may
be in higher position than John; but it doesn't mean that he is a God.
And please listen to above Jesus' words carefully.
Whenever Jesus says about Father, he says “He”. He
never says “I” or “me”. It shows Father is not the son.
Sajan:
Your argument is that Jesus is a prophet. You know that John, the
baptist is a prophet. If Jesus was also a prophet, he will not tell like that I
have testimony weightier than that of John.
Jesus is telling that you people are testifying John the baptist, as you
have seen him but my Father God himself is testifying me.
That means. me and John the baptist are different.
John the baptist is just a Prophet and I am the Son of the Almighty
God.
Friend:
I already replied to this. Up to now all what I have
discussed means “Jesus was a Prophet”.
And I believe that all the prophets were testifying by
God.
Friend:
Also you can refer the following portions in Bible
which shows God is only 'One' and Jesus was not the God.
Old testaments
Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one- Deuteronomy
6:4
Don't we all have one father? Hasn't one God created
us? Why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, profaning the
covenant of our fathers? - Malachi 2:10
43:10“You are my witnesses,” says Yahweh, “With my
servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe me, and understand
that I am he. Before me there was no God formed, neither will there be after
me. 43:11I myself am Yahweh; and besides me there is no savior.- Isaiah
43:10-11
This is what Yahweh, the King of Israel, and his
Redeemer, Yahweh of Armies, says: “I am the first, and I am the last; and
besides me there is no God.- Isaiah 44:6
Declare and present it. Yes, let them take counsel
together. Who has shown this from ancient time? Who has declared it of old?
Haven't I, Yahweh? There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior;
There is no one besides me.- Isaiah 45:21
New testaments
12:29Jesus answered, “The greatest is, 'Hear,
Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one: 12:30you shall love the Lord
your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind,
and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. 12:31The
second is like this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There
is no other commandment greater than these.” 12:32The scribe said to him,
“Truly, teacher, you have said well that he is one, and there is none other but
he,.- Markkose:12:29-32
17:1Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes
to heaven, he said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your
Son may also glorify you; 17:2even as you gave him authority over all
flesh, he will give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 17:3This
is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you
sent, Jesus Christ. - John-17:1-3
19:16Behold, one came to him and said, “Good teacher,
what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” 19:17He said to him,
“Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But
if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”- Matthew-19:16-17
27:45Now from the sixth houry there was darkness over
all the land until the ninth hour. 27:46About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a
loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani?” That is, “My
God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” 27:47Some of them who stood there,
when they heard it, said, “This man is calling Elijah.”- Matthew
-27:45-46
Friend:
I believe that man can do nothing on God. Means God
can control Humans, but reverse is not possible. But you and I know that people
had tried to crucify Jesus; so Jesus is not a God.
But I don't believe that Jesus is a normal person,
instead I believe that he was a good prophet.
And he had born without Father, but Adam had born
without Father and Mother. So it doesn't mean that they are Gods.
According to Bible, one more prophet
will come to the earth after Jesus. The following sentences clearly saying this
truth:
14:16. I will pray to the Father, and he will give you
another Counselor, that he may be with you forever,--14:17. The Spirit
of truth, whom the world can't receive; for it doesn't see him, neither knows
him. You know him, for he lives with you, and will be in you. - John 14:
16-17
16:12. “I have yet many things to tell you, but you
can't bear them now. 16:13. However when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he
will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever
he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming. 16:14.
He will glorify me, for he will take from what is mine, and will declare
it to you. 16:15. All things whatever the Father has are mine; therefore I said
that he takes of mine, and will declare it to you. - John 16:
12-15
This prophet/ counselor is not the Holy
spirit since Bible is telling He will come after Jesus; but Holy spirit was
there at the time of Jesus. See below:
1:32. John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit
descending like a dove out of heaven, and it remained on him. 1:33. I didn't
recognize him, but he who sent me to baptize in water, he said to me, 'On
whomever you will see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is
he who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.' 1:34. I have seen, and have testified that
this is the Son of God.” - John 1: 32-34
So think who is that prophet!. That
prophet is 'Prophet XYZ'.
He never said that Jesus' path was
wrong; instead He always said: “O' Christians and Jews, I came to you not to
reject your path ie, Bible, but only to refresh and correct them”.
O' Sajan, You will not be asked about my
deeds; and I will not be asked about your deeds. So think…. and believe the
best before ending our time/life.
Mail 13(Sajan)
Dear Friend,
I am really sorry for the wrong referece given.
here is the correct reference and the verses.
John 20:26-29
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
I am really sorry for the wrong referece given.
here is the correct reference and the verses.
John 20:26-29
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are
those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
If Jesus did not possess Deity,
Thomas’ statement would have been blasphemy, and Jesus should have rebuked Him.
Instead, Jesus praised Thomas and pronounced a blessing on everyone who
believes the same (verse29)!
അഭിപ്രായങ്ങളൊന്നുമില്ല:
ഒരു അഭിപ്രായം പോസ്റ്റ് ചെയ്യൂ