Discussion about the Book of John Chapter 1 - with a non Christian Friend

These are the starting mails of my discussion with my Friend. Since, we were replying by quoting the previous mail, there are repetitions and really sorry for that. Even though, I was concentrating on the Book of John Chapter 1, some times I had to use the references outside. Please read it and correct if any mistake and add if any addition. Thanks

As a part of the discussion, I have given a pdf to my Friend.

You can download it from the below link.

Unity of the Person of Jesus Christ as the God-man

(Mail 1) Sajan

Dear Friend,


Here I am discussing some of the verses from, Gospel According to John, Chapter 1, in Bible.
John used a lovely language to narrate the Gospel in his book.
It is very nice to read this Gospel.
If you get time please go through the full chapter.
In a single chapter more than 10 times it is written that JESUS is the SON OF GOD.
If you are with the world, you wont believe this truth, because it was like that from the past.
If you are with the God, you will believe in this.
Kindly take some time and read my mail fully, as it is not just a forwarded mail. I have typed all the sentences for you.
Please don't ignore what I have written in it.
Please reply only after reading the mail completely.

Thanks and Regards,
May God Bless You!!!!

(Mail 2) Sajan

The Gospel according to John, Chapter 1:

¹ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ² He was with God in the beginning. ³ Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. ⁴ In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

Here, He, Him = Jesus.

As a normal Human Being, I understood that the Jesus was with God from the beginning.
Did you understand something differently???

¹⁰ He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. ¹¹ He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. ¹² Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— ¹³ children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Friend, now you are also with the world, because, you did not recognize him as the son of God. You are God's Child, but you are not accepting the truth. You are not ready to receive the truth.

If you are ready to believe in his name, you will also get the assurance that you are the child of God.
Here is a big opportunity....

¹⁴ The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Why you have doubt that Jesus is not the Son of God after seeing this bible verses??

¹⁸ No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Are you seeing this verse for the first time??
That's why I am telling that you please don't read bible with the mind of a critic. You wont understand a single word.
You cannot understand Bible with your human logic. It is beyond the logic of Human Beings.

Please try to read the Bible with a peaceful mind.
Then you will understand more...

²⁹ The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! ³⁰ This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ³¹ I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

John, the baptist and the Prophet of Israel testifying that Jesus is the Son of God.

⁴⁰ Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, was one of the two who heard what John had said and who had followed Jesus. ⁴¹ The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, “We have found the Messiah” (that is, the Christ). ⁴² And he brought him to Jesus. 

Andrew, a disciple of Jesus Christ is testifying him.

⁴⁹ Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”

Nathanael testifying Jesus.

Here I am attaching the link for first chapter of Gospel according to John (NIV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1&version=NIV
 

Sajan P. Philip.

(Mail 3) Friend

Sorry for late reply..............

Dear friend, I would like to reply you through different  stages… 1^st is the direct reply to your comments…ie, here….(my replies are underlined ):

¹ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ² He was with God in the beginning. ³ Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. ⁴ In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

The things are conflict in the given sentence:

‘He was with God in the beginning’---what does it mean? Think about the follo. Sentences:

1.   “The God was with God in the beginning”

2.   “Jesus was with God in the beginning”       ---- you just reply your feelings about it.

I am feeling that 1^st sentence is having some mistake…

So it is clear that Jesus is not the God…….or if you are believing that ‘and the Word was God’ is correct , then ^‘He was with God in the beginning’ is wrong. Think about it…. You will get it.

¹⁰ He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. ¹¹ He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. ¹² Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— ¹³ children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Here (1^st part) nothing is specified about God or son of God….but is telling that the people were not believed in him first time...(here ‘him’ can be a prophet/messenger) because this was the

experience by every messengers.

‘Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God’--- this means all those believe in Jesus, will be sons of God….

Then “Jesus is son of God” means he is just like those who believe..(it doesn’t mean that he is a God).

¹⁴ The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

As per bible itself, this sentence is wrong :

1.        Above, you told that all those believe in Jesus, will be sons of God….

2.       Also Bible says about sons of God in following chapters (you can check it)

“I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men.” –(samual_2^nd 7:14)

“I will tell of the decree. Yahweh said to me, “You are my son. Today I have become your father.”  –(Psalm 2:7)

“They shall come with weeping; and with petitions will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by rivers of waters, in a straight way in which they shall not stumble; for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.” –(Jeremiah:31:9)

“the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.” –(The Good News According to Luke-3:38)

So if you are believing in bible, you should also believe that Solomon, Daveed, Ephraim, Adam,etc. are also sons of God.

So tell me any 1 from below

1.    All of them are Gods

2.    None of them is God

¹⁸ No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Here explicitly bible is telling that Jesus is not the God; otherwise the sentence ‘No one has ever seen God’ will become wrong; hence bible itself will become wrong.

²⁹ The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! ³⁰ This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ³¹ I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”
John, the baptist and the Prophet of Israel testifying that Jesus is the Son of God.

⁴⁰ Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, was one of the two who heard what John had said and who had followed Jesus. ⁴¹ The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, “We have found the Messiah” (that is, the Christ). ⁴² And he brought him to Jesus. 
Andrew, a disciple of Jesus Christ is testifying him.
⁴⁹ Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”

I believe that I already told the answer for it or what I told enough for it....

(Mail 4) Sajan

 

Dear friend, I would like to reply you through different  stages… 1^st is the direct reply to your comments…ie, here….(my replies are underlined ):

¹ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ² He was with God in the beginning. ³ Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. ⁴ In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

Here the Word is JESUS Christ. Jesus is a man who is God's word, has taken the form of a simple human being, to show completely; who is God and how is God.
if Word =God
and He(Jesus) = Word,
then Jesus = God.

To get this idea fully, it is required to read the bible fully.

The things are conflict in the given sentence:

‘He was with God in the beginning’---what does it mean? Think about the follo. Sentences:

1.   “The God was with God in the beginning”

2.   “Jesus was with God in the beginning”       ---- you just reply your feelings about it.

I am feeling that 1^st sentence is having some mistake…

So it is clear that Jesus is not the God…….or if you are believing that ‘and the Word was God’ is correct , then ^‘He was with God in the beginning’ is wrong. Think about it…. You will get it.

¹⁰ He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. ¹¹ He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. ¹² Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— ¹³ children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

He WAS in the world and the world was made through him.

If Jesus is just a human being, it is not possible to be present in the world before he born to the earth and the world was made through him. This indicates that he is not just a human being. No other prophets were present before they born to the earth. This means Jesus is not just a prophet.

to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

If I am a child of God, then I can't give others the right to be God's children, by believing in my name, as I am not a God. Here Jesus is telling that you can be God's children by believing in me. This indicate that Jesus is not just a human being like me or you and not a prophet to give the authority in his own.

Here (1^st part) nothing is specified about God or son of God….but is telling that the people were not believed in him first time...(here ‘him’ can be a prophet/messenger) because this was the

experience by every messengers.

‘Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God’--- this means all those believe in Jesus, will be sons of God….

Then “Jesus is son of God” means he is just like those who believe..(it doesn’t mean that he is a God).

¹⁴ The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

As per bible itself, this sentence is wrong :

1.        Above, you told that all those believe in Jesus, will be sons of God….

2.       Also Bible says about sons of God in following chapters (you can check it)

“I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men.” –(samual_2^nd 7:14)

“I will tell of the decree. Yahweh said to me, “You are my son. Today I have become your father.”  –(Psalm 2:7)

“They shall come with weeping; and with petitions will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by rivers of waters, in a straight way in which they shall not stumble; for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.” –(Jeremiah:31:9)

“the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.” –(The Good News According to Luke-3:38)

So if you are believing in bible, you should also believe that Solomon, Daveed, Ephraim, Adam,etc. are also sons of God.

So tell me any 1 from below

1.    All of them are Gods

2.    None of them is God

       Example 1-4 are prophecies of different prophets, that means God is is telling that I am your father and you are my son. Here no one is saying that I am the son of God. God has the freedom to make me or you as his children. In fact all are God's children. Here the scenario is different. Jesus itself is telling that I am the Son Of God. Without getting the authority from the God, no one can tell like that. That means Jesus has the authority to tell that he is the Son of God and he has the assurance about that.
       As per Luke, when he is explaining about the generations of Jesus Christ, he is going in the descending order and finally he is reaching Adam. so he is telling that he is the Son of God, meaning that God directly created Adam from mud. In Genesis itself it is clearly mentioned about the creation and it is clear that Luke means the creation.

   The Advice is that please don't take the bible in a word by word meaning. Take bible as a whole and try to read it and understanding it. Otherwise it will become like the blinds went to see the elephant. Please don't try to find out the verses just for an argument. You will never understand what the Bible is!
 

¹⁸ No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Here explicitly bible is telling that Jesus is not the God; otherwise the sentence ‘No one has ever seen God’ will become wrong; hence bible itself will become wrong.

Here you did not understand the meaning of the verse correctly.
It is simple English and it is written in a beautiful way.
¹⁸ No one has ever seen God, (Except) but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

We can split the sentences like this.
1. Jesus has made the (Father) God known fully to the world.
2. Jesus is in closest relationship with the Father (God).
3. Jesus himself is God.
4. Except Jesus Christ  no one has ever seen God.

(Mail 5) Friend

One thing: ...Dear friend, this is not fight and I will not get any reward if I defeat you; my aim to do my duty; ie., to share my knowledge...

Also I believe that no one will become good or bad by birth in a particular family or religion....

Also let me tell sorry that I can't reply to all your mails immediately... since I am busy... But I will try to reply all relevent comments within days..as soon as possible.

===============================================================

your replies for my comments are not clear or enough... so I am taking the same ..

My question is; anywhere Jesus had told that he is a God.... The answer is No...

But you are telling the follo. things as evidence.... 

Here  the Word is JESUS Christ. Jesus is a man who is God's word, has taken the form of a simple human being, to show completely; who is God and how is God.
if Word =God
and He(Jesus) = Word,
then Jesus = God

 My simple question is

"Friend was with Friend" or "Philip was with Philip"

are these 2 sentences OK? .

Never

Then how you are saying "God was with God".....

You can't never say this...until or otherwise there is some difference between 1st and 2nd God/ Friend/ Philip.

You just think about it in deep.. As I told earliar, if 1st sentence is correct, then 2nd is absolutely wrong..

You can read bible once more...

==============================================================

 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Here my question is "who told Jesus is a God"...

He never told this and only you are saying "'God's son is God". So you must agree that if anybody believe in jesus will also become God as per Bible (since they becomes children).

==============================================================

 Example 1-4 are prophecies of different prophets, that means God is is telling that I am your father and you are my son. Here no one is saying that I am the son of God. God has the freedom to make me or you as his children. In fact all are God's children. Here the scenario is different. Jesus itself is telling that I am the Son Of God. Without getting the authority from the God, no one can tell like that. That means Jesus has the authority to tell that he is the Son of God and he has the assurance about that.

Here what you have said is entirely wrong....

1. If your father says to me, "Hey Friend, Philip is my son" what does it mean?...

Should I disbelieve this upto when you are saying "he is my father"...?

As your father is a human being sometimes I should disbelieve him....

But what you are saying is "We should not believe the Almighty's word also".

2. You told Jesus himself said those things..... But what Bible is telling that "Jesus never said even a single word himself".

The correct quote I don't remember now. (I think that is in Yohannan).

I will send the quote tomorrow..

===================================================================

 No one has ever seen God, (Except) but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known

Here what you are saying is Jesus only had seen God; and through Jesus, people know there is a god.

Same thing I also is saying..... ie, 'People had seen Jesus; but not God'  

If Jesus is God, then we can say; "Bible is wrong"  as per above sentence.

=======================================================================

Some more things last

I am not arguing that Islam is the right; but what I am saying that "As per my knowledge (or understanding), I believe that Islam is the best; If I am understanding anything else better (in future) I will change myself" ..... like this you can also think.....

Because our(or my) aim is not to criticise or defeat anybody, but to get the heaven......

Remaining things later....

(Mail 6) Friend

Here is the quote what I said:

By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.- John 5:30


I believe that God is almighty; but Jesus is telling that he can't do anything...... then how can he become a God?... think urself.

(Mail 7) Sajan

Dear Friend,

I am not trying to argue with you or defeat you.

I have started the discussion only because of you, that you are trying to prove Jesus is not the Son of God by quoting Bible itself.

So it is my duty to share the truth with you.

As per my knowledge Christianity is the best and God shown him fully in Jesus Christ.

I have accepted the truth that Jesus is the Son of God and hence it is my duty to share that knowledge with you since you are saying that Jesus is not the Son of God without understanding or reading the Bible fully by sticking on to one or two sentences in the Bible.

Like Muslims, Christians do not have the teaching that we should try to understand the bible word by word.

Our teaching is that please try to understand the Bible as a whole.

If you want to understand a person, please try to understand him as a whole.

By two or three characters we cannot judge a person.

So please read the bible and try to understand it as a whole.

One person went to see Gomatheswara statue.

By covering 108 steps, he saw only the leg of the Statue.

So by seeing only one sentence you will get only a vague idea about the Bible, Jesus, and the message of the Bible.

Please don't judge or stick on to the a single sentence, just for an argument.

My other mails will give you the clarity about the same.

I thing I am sure about is, you will know the truth in the near future and you will believe in it.

The Truth will set you free....

Thanks and regards,

Sajan P Philip.

(Mail 8) Sajan

Whether Jesus ever told that he is the Son of God or He is the God??

John 8:56

"Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad."

John 8: 58

 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"

John 10: 30

  "The Father and I are one."

John 14: 6

 ⁶ Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ⁷ If you really know me, you will know^[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

John 14: 8-10

 ⁸ Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

 ⁹ Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? ¹⁰ Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? 

John 11: 25

Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?"
    "Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God."

Mark 14: 61

 Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

   ⁶² “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Due to your time constrains I am stopping here.

Are you clear??

I hope you got enough reference that Jesus told many times that he is the Son of God or God.

Thanks and regards.

Sajan P Philip.

(Mail 9) Sajan

I believe that God is almighty; but Jesus is telling that he can't do anything...... then how can he become a God?

Colossians 1:15

"Christ is the visible image of the invisible God."¹
Here Paul is telling Jesus is an visible image of the Invisible God.

You know that Carbon, one element is there.
But can you show Carbon to me??
You cannot.
But You can show the visible forms of Carbon like Charcoal and Diamond.
Please apply the same analogy he

Friend, we must need in depth thinking to understand this concept.
Jesus is God and he was the Son of God and He was there in the universe from the creation itself.
When the God took the visible image of him, as a Human being, He must show the characters of a Human Being.
So God took the form of a Son from the Father.
As a human being, we should be polite our self.
As a human being, Jesus is showing his politeness through this verse, that He is doing the will of his father, that shows his obedience and Love towards his father, as he is a Good son, so that the people in the world also imitate him and will do the will of God.

We can see a Good Son in Jesus Christ, so that we can imitate that in our daily life.
Even though he is equally powerful and he is the God, he is showing his politeness as a good Son by saying like this.

(Mail 10) Sajan

³⁷ And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, ³⁸ nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.


"Here Jesus is telling that You have never heard his voice nor seen his form."

What does that mean??

If Friend is telling to me that "You did not see the Holy Qur'an", what does that mean??
Friend saw the Holy Qur'an and me not.
Correct??

Likewise Jesus already saw the almighty God.
That's why he is telling you have never heard his voice nor seen his form.

That means Jesus has some specialty than the human being and Angels.
So Jesus is the Son of God, he himself is God, and the visible image of the God.

Please go through the Part 2 and Part 3 of my mail.
Then you will get more clarity about the same.

Is there any issue in the sentence below??

The king was with the king.

Thanks and regards.
Sajan P Philip.

(Mail 11) Sajan

Dear Friend,

More explanations to Chapter 1 of John.

John begins by identifying his claims regarding who Jesus is.
The introduction of John’s gospel immediately introduces the major themes that John intends to discuss.
Then he spends the rest of the book proving and demonstrating these themes from the life and teaching of Jesus.
The “Word” refers to Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, as shown by verse 14,17.
“In the beginning” must refer to the beginning of creation, as in Genesis 1:1.
That this is the meaning is confirmed in verse 3 showing that Jesus is the Creator.
So Jesus existed from eternity with the Father.
Note that the use of “was” shows that Jesus already was in existence when the Creation occurred.

Major  truths regarding Jesus stated in John 1:1-18:

1. Jesus is eternal and uncreated, existing before the world began (1:1-3).
2. Jesus possesses Deity (absolute authority and rulership over created things — 1:1).
3. Jesus is a separate Being from the Father (1:1,2,18).
4. Jesus is the Creator – the active force through Whom all things were made (1:3,10).
5. Jesus is the source of truth and understanding of God’s will (1:4,5,14,17,18).
6. Jesus is the source of life by which men have a relationship with God and hope of eternal life (1:4).
7. Jesus became incarnate in the flesh as a man (1:14,9,10)
8. Jesus was rejected by men (1:10,11).
9. Jesus is the One who can give people power to become children of God (1:12).


The Word was “with God” in that Jesus was present in the beginning with the Father (see v3; Cf. 1 John 1:2) – hence, He is a separate individual living Being from the Father.
But also He “was God” in that He Himself possessed Deity.
To say there is one God is not necessarily to say there is only one individual Being that possesses Deity.
Jesus affirmed that He and His Father are “one” as all believers are to be one (John 17:20,21) — not one individual, but one in purpose, goal, doctrine, etc.
The term “God” refers to that which possesses all the characteristics of Deity and therefore deserves to be worshiped and honored as God.

Another Example:

John 28-29

After he saw proof of Jesus’ resurrection, Thomas addressed Jesus as “my Lord and my God” Clearly Thomas is here calling Jesus “God.”


If Jesus did not possess Deity, Thomas’ statement would have been blasphemy, and Jesus should have rebuked Him. Instead, Jesus praised Thomas and pronounced a blessing on everyone who believes the same (verse29)!

Thanks and regards.
Sajan P Philip.